Is your age against you?

I think there is an argument that the more seasoned IT people, especially those who started 30/40 years ago and probably come through SME channels, are jack-of-all-trades. They hold a mature knowledge of practical IT in business with great depth of experience in strategy and risk. The IT market now seems to enjoy pigeon-holes of technical specialism, even pigeon-holes within pigeon-holes when that specialism mandates xx years experience, also as an essential. The street-wise potential and well rounded techno-commerce acumen is safely with the older IT professionals who, in my opinion, are truly struggling to compete with the recession-fed over-indulgence of “essential specialism”.

So, yes, I believe the industry discriminates against older IT professionals but not just with the younger crowd.

Essentially, yes – but not in the way that might be expected. I don’t think I’ve lost out on any job application in the recent recession because of my age, greying temples etc. as I’ve barely had a handful of interviews for people to see me and my CV doesn’t state my age. I suppose the fact I’m older could be gleaned from my experience but that doesn’t seem to be the issue.

What is the problem is that, if you are older, your skills will have come from experience and not from a myriad of pointless courses that teach you what you can learn in six weeks on the job. Examples? I’ve Project Managed major moves but aren’t able to PM now unless I get Prince2. I could, of course, (in fact, I am) trying to get that qualification but if, as Mr Elliott states we are jack-of-all-trades – and I would certainly count myself in that group – then I could spend about £10k a year on courses. My training qualification is as good as a first year school teacher but, apparently, it is not enough for some companies who want one of six industry ’standard’ (in reality not standards at all) qualifications. I can’t even apply for a Helpdesk Manager’s job (despite having done several in many blue-chip companies), as there is now a ‘qualification’ for doing that role. I could – and I know because I have looked into it – put myself on a minimum of six courses to gain an accreditation of some sort for jobs that I have done many times over the last 20 years. My experience counts for nothing and, as I worked on one of the first IBM PC’s in the country running DOS v.1.0 and Lotus 1-2-3 v.1.0 I find it a bit galling to have to keep going ‘back to school’

Ongoing training is certainly a pain, but really not worth doing unless your employers pays for it and sends you on the courses.
In the industry everybody I have ever spoken to cites experience as the main factor. You cannot get hired just for having a qualification, those days were long gone years ago (bad luck newbies – market’s full and ain’t going to get any better)
I have also found the too many skills problem to be brain damaged though. Do you want someone who only knows 1 thing or someone who knows 5 for the same money, that’s a no-brainer!
They expect that someone who only knows the 1 to be better at that 1, but in reality they’re just lazier people that haven’t worked so hard to pick up skills and be well rounded technically. We have lots of those unimpressive types in our headquarters…
I believe that trading companies would make better use of more highly skilled people as they usually seem to want geniuses with lots of skills.

As a “seasoned” IT person
I am more in the Jack of all trades dept, and find it it a very difficult market to enter looking for work due to the technical niche’s that have been created, where these jobs are really not that specialist but have been created to generate revenue through course and qualifications that can mean nothing.
Ok sour grapes over
I agree with most of what’s been said already also as an example of what experience v qualifications mean I can use my son as a prefect scenario of what’s probably happening in most work environments, he’s got more qualifications than he needs ( IMHO ) but still has to come to me for advice and help trouble shooting problems be it hardware software, what would take him 1 hour takes me about 15 mins and is fast becoming a joke as I told him I’m going premium rate on my telephone.

PS
At 47 I’ve just about given up on even thinking I’m going to have my CV considered by some 25 year old personnel dept clerk.
And talking about first systems my first biggie was a DEC 10 system in a enviro sealed room lol, and wading through punch card debris from the operators offices, those little bits of paper got everywhere.

My advice is: remove your age from the cv, remove start/end dates of education/university, only show the last 7-10 years of employment, not more 10 years as it counts against you, on job sites when you register just say your started your career 7-10 years ago. This is an ageist society, dont fool yourselves everybody. At the end of the day you must get a job. Good luck mate.

I’d have to find myself agreeing with Phil Elliot. I cut my teeth on IBM mainframes so you can guess where I sit in the age categories. But I don’t think my age per se is against me – it’s more this attitude to specialisation that Phil refers to. Over the years I have made sure I keep re-investing in myself to make sure my skills are up to date and in demand, and I have the appropriate certifications for what I’m doing, which at the moment is mostly PM work. This can be frustrating as I feel my real value to a client is my all round competence, not specific deep skills.
I sympathise with PJUK but that’s life.. Prince2 is a 4 day course and a simple multiple choice questionaire. So just do it! It doesn’t matter if its worthwhile or not – quite simply if its not on your CV you are on the discard pile. And you have to “go back to school”. I also worked on DOS V1.0 and Basica, but those skills are dead now. As a professional you have to keep re-investing in yourself or you are history. I know its frustrating but that’s the market at the moment. I’ve been caught by this “you only have version 3.1 but we are on 3.2″ nonsense. What can you do?
I’ve found things a bit difficult over the last 12 months, but I think that’s the market and not my age.

I think the two previous comments pretty-well sum it up, but misconstrue as “age discrimination” what is really a trend towards a preoccupation “tangible criteria” . Having completed a Masters Degree at age 48 to re-skill after 20 years of diverse experience in a spectrum of languages and industries I emerged to find the qualification worthless and even the fact of having done it completely overlooked.
The obsession with x years experience in a specialisation overlooks that it may be x times 1 year experience doing the same thing which may have been cut-and-pasting someone else’s code which uses a spectrum of foundation routines written by someone else.
The Microsofts of the world have cynically cashed in on “certifications” (Johnathin Swift’s candlestick jumping ’springs’ to mind) providing yet another “tangible” and “quantifiable” but probably irrelevant criteria. And then there is the online test with multiple choice questions about the most cryptic and esoteric aspects of the software tool that the company boffin could come up with and which, in fact, reflect only that if you are using these obscure idiosyncracies of the language or tool then you probably have serious problems at the design level.
The fundamental problem is that in an industry obsessed with the short term where every capital investment wants skills they are not willing to invest in but only “head-hunt” from others, managers and personnel agencies are faced with the patently impossible task of assessing knowledge in hours, or even minutes that has taken years to acquire.

My experience of almost 30 years in the IT industry (after wide experience in other things) has given me to the belief that it is the slick-talkers who know the jargon and are strong on impressions but light on insight borne of practical experience reflectionv people who can produce a large quantity of impressive but flimsy output, have it hands down over the thinker who wants a more robust and considered approach. The industry is awash with tortises cleaning up the mess made by the hares. Perhaps the most striking example was the London Ambulance System which cost £40M and 8 lives when ANYONE who has ever given a minute’s thought to the implementation of IT systems would know that a “big bang” implementation of such a system was definitely NOT the way to go.
We have an army of managers trying to get “experts” to perform functions that they (the managers) have little real understanding of and only want to hear that “it will meet the requirement and budget and will be finished on time” and the most convincing bed-time story wins the day.

i live and work in Holland, age discrimination is supposed to be illegal however;
the govt social system actually has a special section for 45+ers.
job ad’s often state “young people wanted”.
i do not state my age on my CV and get quite a lot of interviews, however i am quite openly told “you are too over qualified” as a reason not to be given the position applied for.
I am of the opinion, that once a man hits 45, he is openly rejected because of age, i get so irritated at been told i am over qualified…it so obviously telling me i am too old…

Ageism is still rife in the industry, despite ‘protection’ under current legislation. As an example, a job on offer today stated ‘… if you would like to work in a youthful environment…’ methinks there is a hidden agenda?

Like many others who have posted it is more about having done courses recently and have computer degrees; i.e. their CVs have the anacronyms that ignorant (kindly meant) recruiters find easy to spot. I’ve got a history degree, 20 years experience of IT, the last 10 as a contractor and have done 7 of the last 9 years with just two organisations – so I must be pretty good? Faced with so many CVs recruiters are sifting in the easiest way possible and those like me without the current anacronyms (ITIL, Prince etc.) get binned. Having worked with people with these ’skills’ I can’t see why they were any better at the job than I was.

Age is definitely a factor in getting a new job. I have over 30 years QA experience at all levels in a wide range of industries around the world. Agencies and recruiters see this experience and possibly my DOB and draw the following conclusions 1. I am too old and set in my ways to learn new ways of working and new technologies 2. I am not fast enough, 3. I am not keen enough and 4. I would be bored with any job if it is not at the highest level and before I forget because of my age I am over qualified. What a pity that my experience and knowledge of how to prevent problems goes unwanted and counts for nothing in the age of the under 30s.

Isn’t it time that all of us wise old farts who know what it’s all about stopped chasing the carrot of capitalism and started pooling our skills against the NWO? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLPG_HplrA
Just a thought.
But really, I’ve ALWAYS believed I was working for the wrong side – it’s certainly never been in my own interests – it’s just that it was THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN and no-one else was willing to even discuss alternatives. I have a feeling that as the arse falls out of this system – as it will do probably next year, there will be more old farts out considering alternatives.

It is difficult and I hold a PHd and at the age of 54 I am battling to find any Contracts anywhere in the world so both age and skin colour do certainly count against on particulary in Africa. I am now going back out to the GCC to look and anywhere in the EU…

Ageism starts to kick in seriously when you pass 50. It has to be the stupidest of all the isms.When you know most and are the most committed to staying in employment, managers (often in your own age group) prefer know little, fly by night 25 year olds.Job agencies with their tickbox mentality are the curse of the working classes not drink. People are individuals and should be judged on those grounds. I have many qualifications and am Prince 2 accredited and very experienced but it counts for nothing because I am over the big 50

As in Dominic’s post, I am over 50 and have around 25 years in the industry. Ageism is most definitely a factor, and I am getting a little tired of the ‘you’re over-qualified’ twaddle. For me, a large part of the problem is that both the agents and the ‘end-clients’ (agents always forget the contractor is as much the client, and his/her ability to please the entity they think of the client is what defines how much ‘money for old-rope’ they will receive!) are profoundly ignorant of their actual needs. Some years ago, during a similar lull in the market, I tried to promote the idea that agents should pay someone like ourselves to attend the initial meeting with the ‘clients’, so we could advise them as to their real personnel requirements. They all agreed it was a great idea, which naturally, they didn’t once act upon.

One of the most frustrating things is to see that particular industries insist on contractors being from the same background as themselves, when I would argue that business processes are just that, processes, and that my most fundamental value to the client is the very fact I don’t share their assumptions – indeed if I did, they wouldn’t need me. As a Business Analyst, I have always maintained that my primary skill-set is to ‘ask the right questions’, rather than to go into a project hallucinating that I already have all the answers.

Hmmm… Ageism, yep seen that. Ofter veiled as “over qualified”, or some other reason that cannot be reguarded as discrimination. Ever been to the interview, ticked all the boxes but then told you don’t have “X” when it wasn’t a requirement? I have teh Prince2/ITIL/MCP (lower version) just to make sure I get hits in job searches. Ever had teh head hunter that reads out the job spec, then you have to educate them what some of the accronyms actually mean?

Don’t show my age/DoB on the CV and only last 10/12 years of work (must take the dates of my school!).

I feel great to have experience, but those interviewers that feel like you might be after their job

Yep… Ageism, get used to it, cause it is not going to go away.

Yes, it aint going away. Ageism is here to stay. I think of those images of building the pyramids when thousands of slaves and lackeys on ropes pulled the stone blocks along on logs. In all the insanity of unfortunates crushed under logs or dying on the roadside of starvation or overwork (hahaha – dramatic isn’t it?) – and all to satisfy the insane, superstitious aspirations of a Pharoh. Has anything really changed?
Except of course the H&S regulations, and then there is roads and sewers… come to think of it the Egyptians have done quite a lot for us…
Hahahaha

Some great comments here. I am somewhat comforted that its not just me feeling this prejudice. We created this industry and I certainly didn’t expect to be feeling washed up at just 53. It’s now that I feel at my peak because of my length of service to IT.

Lots of great comments but nary a solution amongst them. Just like a lot of you guys, I’ve solved everything from a bent punch card to creating and implementing multi-million £ technology solutions but this subject is one problem I cannot solve. Alas, the bottom of this sub-routine has dropped out and now I am an exception. Any ideas guys? I am beginning to believe I am old.

I don’t understand why this should even be an issue. Take the best person you can get for the money you have. There is no such thing as overqualified. There is no such thing as over experienced. More not less. More more more more more more more!!!!!

Some very interesting comments guys. It is nice but frustrating to know that as many have said I am not on my own in experiencing these problems.
Let me add a new twist to the problem. If you are over 50 and have moved overseas to Cyprus or mainland Europe the problem gets a lot worse even though you have spent most of your working life in the UK. Agencies turn you down because of age AND because they think you will not move. What these agencies seem to forget is that people of our age and experience only apply for jobs we know we can do and are happy to move to the location at our own expense to do the jobs we apply for.
My only solution to these problems is to keep on plugging away and applying. One day an enlightened company will offer us the job which we want at the salary or rate which reflects our experience.

Quite right – all these comments are bang-on. I learned the hard way that whenever I hired someone it should be for their potential, not just their current skills and experience and definitely not their age! (Hence I only interviewed people who’d achieved a certain score in and IQ or logic test, and if was a consultancy/client facing position, they had to do a presentation at the interview). It narks me when the adverts say I must be certified in NAV or Dynamics or SAP (I’m an ERP implementor), ‘cos I can learn any package in two shakes. The key requirement is experience of delivering into the client industry – manufacturing, food and drink, retail, finance etc – not whether you’ve got certified in the latest esoteric art. However, if you can’t beat ‘em , join ‘em! I’m about to buckle down learning NAV and Dynamics AX and maybe SAP BusinessbyDesign . (btw – I’ll take the advice to delete the first 10 year’s off my CV – what a waste!)

I agree the job specs are ridiculous saying must have this and this-logically some packages sit with each other and in the goold old days it would be accepted that you would know about them anyway-now I need a piece of paper…uselss. Wow just thought it me being over 40 that noticed a few things off the edge with contracts. SAP is a good one to learn as is oracle functional stuff as they always in demand. Oh I laughed at the wiping of experience it really narks when an agency asks me to rewrite my CV to fit a job spec–my answer if the bod reading it knows his stuff there should be no need

I feel that a lot of you are missing the point. You all seem to have so little respect for yourselves. A few audacious people arrange all the candlesticks and decide how high they will be and you all go out trying to jump over them; attending courses, obtaining certifications, adding this or that “flavour of the month” acronym to your CV as if these lists of acronyms define who you are as an IT professional. Most of these acronyms are a foreign language to most recruiters and managers (and, come right down to making something meaningful work using the tool or standard or protocol or methodology that the acronym represents, even the team leader might be pinning his/her hopes on you).

In the first 2 years I was in this industry I spent a lot of time listening to people who were “old timers” back then and I know something about the history of the induatry that went before me. In the 20+ years that have passed since then I have seen some of the industry’s history first hand. One fundamental theme has been this: in the context that business depends on the technology we provide shareholders and their deligates, all the way down the chain have been continually asking us to provide them the wherewithall to control what we do. It is the collective lack of self respect that has reduced IT professionals to jumping over candlesticks to prove their worth when in fact we proved ourselves utterly priceless when we completed an undergraduate degree demonstrating an intellectual capacity to grasp the concepts as required.

Age discrimination PAH! Tell me I’m too old to be useful and I’l walk away and leave you to your own silly consequences (perhaps investing in derivatives) – I have better things to do (perhaps to have a farm and grow potatoes).

Yes, I have not received responses to job applications resulting in interviews, apart from a few out of London for admin or shop jobs.

The fact that I’m older may be gleaned from my experience listed on my C.V. which does not give my age or date of birth. I am currently taking the few local “odd day” local admin. temp jobs which are offerred to me in the South East.

I am not a graduate, my skills have come from experience (working on a wide range of activities and projects). I attended a PRINCE2 course some years ago.

I was a Human Resources Manager and have worked on Transformation and Change Projects in the Smarter Working area associated with new accommodation and IT changes. I have worked in the last 5 years taking forward change activity, engaging with groups of staff preparing for new records and information management processes.

I couldn’t agree more with the comments posted above. I have past the magic age(is it 26 or something), long ago and like most of you guys I to have many years experience (30+ years when we had to carry meters and oscilloscopes around) in the industry in most disciplines and to have some pimply teenager or female who was more interested in her frolics the previous evening look at your CV to determine if the will put you forward for a job is so frustrating I have given up. Most of these front end people have no idea what they are looking for (most think that TCP/IP is a new mouthwash and PRINCE 2 is a new iteration of a pop star!!). Unless, like one of the bloggers above has mentioned, you have all the buzz words on your CV you’ve no chance, yet to put down our experience would entail writing an essay which I would think would not be read. I guess that all of us have more experience in our little finger but because these agency idiots that we are forced to cowtow to have no idea, we are thrown onto the scrap pile as to old. I agree with one of the bloggers above, let us form a new knowledge base and get out there or try to force some form of legislation on these agencies that employ cheapskate dimwits at the front end. I mean let’s be honest they are dealing with our livelihood and careers.
Frustrated to say the least
Freddie

Age is against you if you are over 40 Years old.I started my Career in IT working far a couple of IBM Brokers in London establishing large Accounts in Germany for them.In 1985 I started my own Company and trading for almost 16 Years which speaks for itself.I took a break from IT to persue another un related Business.
For me to get back into IT proved almost impossible because a s soon I mention my Age its a no go Situation.No matter which Law will be introduced there is always a way to decline older IT Pros.

Age discrimination does exist and will always exist regardless of the anti-descrimination law… employers will provide you with an excuse that someone else has met their requirements over yours for the job. Recruitment consultants are no guarantee to finding you or even getting you an interview with a perspective employer. Basically you are in the mercy of the Recruitment consultant, they want to make their commission will put forward younger candidates over you even if you are the best match for the job, the employer does not get to see your CV so therefore back to square one!
More so now, according to the advertisements posted they are looking for specific pigeonhole technical skills, a good example is the Project Manager role – a Project Manager is a Leader that manages the project from inception project delivering to operational\live status, utilising a methodology that provides the governance, framestructure – simples! not in the eyes of the employer and recruitment consultants. Another mith is that if a person is qualified to Prince2 is a better Project Manager than someone who has not got Prince2. It is the experience, knowledge, leadership, management style, that will deliver and ensure progress is made to the satisfaction of stakeholders. Prince2 is just a project management descipline it is a formal structure, it provides the what to do approach and not the how to do.
As for the CV, even if you dont enter your age, by providing the start and end dates of your previous employers they can more or less tell what age group you belong to… anyway people must feel proud of their age and be up front with it after all you are not selling your age, you are actually saying this is the age I am and my experience speaks volumes… If employers and recruitment consultants are stupid to go by numbers they are the loosers cause they are missing out getting the best person for the job.

Another take on the ageism thing is that when faced with a c.v. showing extensive experience and skills a more junior (younger) manager who has the decision making power will often baulk at the prospects of hiring someone apparently more skilled than themselves.

Not strictly ageism more experiencism.

John

I noticed in my mid 30’s that I wasn’t being considered by any agents. So I took my DOB off and was inundated with calls. They want twenty years experience but you can’t be old enough to actually have it. I’ve also been hit by the buzz word problem in the last couple of years. Datawarehouse, oh yes we used to call it a database with reports! I am rewriting my cv and renaming what I did, so that when the bimbos run their key word searches, my cv will once more be picked up! I have noticed that Dutch, German and Belgian agents appear to actually read. These are the only call backs I have rec’d in the last year. I’ve just picked up a contract in London with a Belgian agent, in a field I know nothing about, but where my plentiful and broad experience convinced them I can do the job. 1 + 1 still makes 2 be it currency or oranges.

As a very mature job-hunter I have seen the Microprocessor end of computing develop. It is inevitable that as a technology burgeons it will evolve niches, jargon and prejudices. And the older you get the better over-view you have but that don’t fill niches.
Ageism is alive and well and one of the strengths of agencies is that it buffers emloyers/managers from the acusation thereof. They think! The statistics speak for themselves.

In a better climate a person under 40 took 3 months to find a job, on average. A person in their 50’s it was 9 months. No-one dared to consider the over 60’s. And the UK Gov have ways to push those people off the statistics. Which is a governmental form of ageism.

Now anyone care to apply the correction factor to the above for a shrinking economy?

In the past, I worked for a highly reputable organisation as a Senior Manager, after many years decided to leave as I wanted a change – so I left. Took 3 months out just to do literally nothing and had a holiday. Then I signed up with 2 – 3 Recruitment consultants to help me put my foot into the door of perspecive employers. I was told I was over qualified…! Six months down the line, I had enough, wanted to be working to interact with people, and took temporary assignments working for the likes of BT, Engineering, Construction companies, and actively looking for next career move. The Recruitment consultants did nothing for me. I lliterally applied directly to organisations advertising and had interviews, my next job was with a Legal Company and following my next career break was a well known Utilites company started on a contract and ended staying for 11 years. Dont give up… we are going through an economic downturn time to reassess what you really want, just like I did – I am out of the rut race!

I’m 58 now. Got into SAP 6 years ago via another job I was doing for the same organisation, due to having previous IT training experience, though my main experience was in training and not IT. They paid for me to do the relevant SAP courses. 2 years ago the organisation decided to split my job – along with that of several other people – which would have left me doing more business analysis and project management rather than the technical side of SAP. I didn’t like that so put my CV out to the recruitment agencies and could not believe the number of responses I got. I had my first telephone interview a week later, followed by several others. A face-to-face interview follwed a week after that, with several more arranged for the following week. I was offered the job from the first interview while I was driving home, at 5K more than I was on at the time. I took the offer! After 2 years the firm for which I have been working ( a major player in the building industry) has made me redundant along with thousands of others. I offically left work on Friday 16 Oct, had an interview with another organisation on Monday 19th and start work with them on 2 November, and yes, the salary is higher than my leaving from my last job. So is age against you in finding work in the It industry? Not in my experience and I’m not one with 30 years in the IT trade!

SAP is a specific enterprise solution – you are very lucky David that you got training, this is why you are in demand !
SAP is the world’s leading provider of business software and is the 3rd largest software company in the world, competing with Oracle and Microsoft.

Good luck

Mister SAP exhibits the kind of myopia that is rife in the IT industry and serves as the very bread and butter of capitalism , which goes something like “if I’m not affected, there isn’t a problem” or, as it’s usually put by Australians “I’m alright Jack, bugger you”. It’s usually a short-lived glory, as Mr SAP will disciver when the proverbial hits the capitalist fan – as will happen very soon, I believe.

The problem of “Ageism” is only a symptom of a bigger problem, more deeply rooted than merely a waste of the resources of training and experience invested in “ageing professionals”, it’s a fundamental incompetence of the syatem itself, a system owned and run by psychopaths (one who can inflict pain, suffering, injury, even death without empathy, compassion or remourse) – the people who gave us the Vietnam War (Killing villiagers by showering them with burning plastic) and Shock and Awe (murdering women and children with white phosphorous). But for us IT professionals, buried in our concerns over “ageism” this is all invisible – Thats MYOPIA!

Some interesting comments here. Like many of you , I dont think ageism is something that “may be happening”, it’s just an everyday reality that we all have to fight.
I’ve now been out of work two years, and am 45. Had some good jobs, but the reality is that Ive found it difficult to find work ever since the end of the Y2K boom/ tech bubble. I simply got tired of chasing the acronyms and the latest technologies , especially since none of my employers were prepared to subsidise on-the-job training . So when the Internet came along, and we needed yet again to reskill , I just ducked out. I just didnt think it was worth the blood sweat and tears to compete any more.
Im now retraining into another field. But believe me its hard. 20 years in IT hasnt left me much in the way of transferable skills (yes had to write off the first 10 years as well). Still I dont want to look back. I had a good run but enough was enough, and now I am moving on. Even if Im still annoyed at how “unfair” it all is…..

In my case it’s the magic “40″ I’ve passed. Having worked 7 years in application support at IBs I walked away to try something new, and 18 months later (now unfortunately it’s 2 years later) I am finding it tough to make my way back in. Completely agree with the comments about the recruitment consultants’ “shopping list” mentality, and the emphasis now placed on what version of what technology are you certified in.
In terms of ageism, I now no longer bother with job ads that mention e.g. ‘graduate’ or ‘junior’ as the subtext is plainly “are you 26?” (not the face value “have you got a degree” or ” are you prepared to accept a junior position”). The word “bubbly” is another red flag…
Interesting to see people’s suggestions for how to address the issue on the CV. I don’t state my age or DOB. However I’m unsure if it wouldn’t be counter-productive to remove dates altogether as this would surely scream paranoia or at least something to hide to the person reading it. If I were reading a CV without dates, I think it would make considering the person too difficult on account of the questions raised.

I’m the sort of person who always wants to connect up the dots and see things in the context of the big picture. As a result I see my current circumstances (i.e. Having transformed from a “saleable commodity” worth in the order of £300/day to a “shop soiled item” worth £0 overnight) as the result of the action of a bunch of swaggering, incompetent American cowboys flush with middle-east dollars (taken at gun-point) buying up all the companies that produce a diversity of products in a narrow specialisation, divesting of their skill base and simply phasing out their products by coescing their acquired customer base into accepting the new American product.
Of course, I’m angry, not just for the impact it has on me but also for the impact on hundreds, perhaps thousands of others like me. In that sort of context the irrationality and incompetence of wasting the skills associated with years of training and experience invested in “ageing professionals” is just small fish.
But I never expected fairness or rationality out of capitalism, I’be known from the lessons learnt playing Monopoly into the wee small hours when I was 15 that capitalism is a stupid system.

It comes to mind, collectively the skill-sets put together is phenomenon – just think if it were possible all regional unemployed experts got together to form a company that offers ‘on the spot’ IT solutions to industry at a very competitive price.. so instead of having to go through the Recruitment Consultants, employers seach for the Professional they want to fulfil their business requirements – this approach is cost effective, it is quick, it eliminates the middle man i.e. agencies and allows Professionals to shine advertising their experience, knowledge that will make a difference. Just a thought !

Many valid comments here, but I find that jobs for which I am qualified have suddenly been subject to salary “trimming” and not by the od £1K pa, but by £5 or 6K pa. The hourly rate for contractors being reduced from£15ph to £11 or 12 ph, which makes them unatractive to more experience IT professionals and encourages untrained and inexperienced youngsters who ought to be on a training apprenticeship for want of a better term. The sucessful candidates are trained (and blamed when things go wrong) into a specific skill-set which does not meet most jobs which are on offer, in fact sometimes I think that employers list an unachievable skill-set for their own purposes. I’m sure that if I had the skills detailed in some jobs, I would be more highly qualified than the boss, so lets be honest, Mr Employer, and be specific and then pick the best person for the job, not by how sycophantic or cheap they are, you have to pay for quality even in prospective employees and these may be more mature than you would normally employ.

ouch……… I am 58 too…….So many of you have come up with exaclty what I have experienced in all my years in IT. I have ‘done’ and ‘been there’ and ‘got the tee shirt’ with a lot of your comments on this subject.
PJUK… I think I beat you ……. remember the Phillips P2000 ‘Luggable’ ????? one of the first … so-called portables…
Like you Steve Swatman…. I am often told that I am over qualified… even though at the beginning of every interview… its .. ‘wow you have a lot of real qualified experience’.
But often its a case of ‘who can we get for the cheapest’? and if it means that they have to get someone in to rectify the shortcomings made by that original decision… so be it.
I have always been of the sort that does the best I can for the contract that I am currently in……I look upon the task as ….. if I were doing it for my own company…….(just like the mechanic down the road…..will always do work on his own car far better than those who paid him to do the same job on their cars.) however the second part of the analogy is not me….. as I always do work to my finest ability…….
perhaps thats my downfall….. not my age…?
But I am not going to lie down and be buried………. I will fight to my last breath…….
How about it guys…..what about Vasoula’s solution for all us older guys with so much experience….I think we could seriously do a lot of head-hunters and agencies a lot of damage (as if thats not sufficient incentive) and push a lot of the younger guys into where they ..(well most) really belong…….the ‘as runs’ and bring the IT industry in this country back to its peak where most of us have been at some point in there lives…. perhaps then we wont have these recessions that affect us all….

58, youngster! I cut my teeth on Eliot computers and then the Sinclair/Vic and Commodore 64 home PCs. This takees me back to th old 8088/6 processors and Z80s (what was the one for the Acorn/BBC machines?). Since then I have seen great strides forwards, Buletin Boards have given way to the web and other user driven systems. Unfortunately employers can be skeptical about the abilities of more mature IT specialists and is it the employers who generate new terminology for existing systems? Winchat was common on old windows networks, nowadays we need to have the MSN Messenger and a PC with at least a 2GHz dual core processor, 3GB RAM and your HDD minimum 100GB! otherwise we have to wait for the PC to catch up with us (what happened to the “Incredible” speed of computers?) Have a look at Linux, the Ubuntu, Gnome, KDE or X-Windows variants. But I ramble on, Grumpy Old Man syndrome or what. I shall gradually resign myself to retirement and look forward to the Government paying me, instead of me paying them for the privelidge of working! Meanwhile I shall enjoy my computing skills and using them.

when you work for a council for nine years then someone accuses you of being racies when I’m not they put you on suspension without a verble watning first then forget about you. because I’m 64 nealy retirement and they wont me to retire now and I dont wont to until I’m 65 which is the end of next year I cannot live on a basic wage of 25 hours and now they are trying to make me retire.I am fit and active why should I retire for them. I drive a mini bus taking disabled school children to school then taking elderly and disabled people to day centre’s 5days a week and I love doing it.

Eva

There are actions you can take: Seek advise from directgov and also citizens advice.
Seek out your rights…. and get help from ACAS – check them out on the website. Just by merely accusing you of racism is not enough to place you on suspension – get help now….

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/DiscriminationAtWork/index.htm

Everyone misses the point unfortunately.
This unethical problem of “why aged candidates are not employable?” It is not the “age” or “over qualified” or “expensive”, those are merely polite excuses. It is simply that a Senior Professional is not a muppet.
Bottom line Companies are NOT INTERESTED in your skills but want to indoctrinate you their way. A youngster IT person is more likely to be molded than a seasoned one.

Bang-on the nail, Mario. Getting the job done (efficiently, effectively, economically – whatever the priority) is only part of the picture – and then you need to ask “who is ‘they’?” (or in your words “just ‘who’ are ‘companies’?”. Do the objectives of the guy doing the recruitment necessarily align with those of the ‘Company’?.

Looked at in a wider perspective, we are caught up in a system that is not interested in the useful application of human ability and effort to the cause of betterment of the general human condition. It’s objectives are at best obscure, if rational at all. With trillions of dollars being spent on destruction of nations and callous ways to kill children there is a case to argue that it is psychopathic.

<b>Psychopath</b> One who can inflict pain, suffering, injury, even death without empathy, compassion or remorse.
Consider a system that can kill children with naphalm or white phosphorous and dismiss it casually as “collateral damage”. Clearly psychopathic.

I would buy the “too expensive” line as a possibly legitimate excuse… but I feel that young people have more energy that companies can exploit… I will hate to get old in such an ageist world… especially since I will be even more excellent when I am older… at what point does your age start to work against you? If it’s 45 then what do you do for the last 20 working years of your life? (or more like 30 years by the time I get there and they raise pension age a few times)

Mario

I dont agree with your assumptions; Companies are definitely interested in older professionals they will pay a high salary to get them; it is unfortunate that we are going through a bad recession, there are many people unemployed all aiming to get a job.

Hari

Dont give up – there is an aswer to your question. Stay in your company and grow; when the opportunity arises do move into another job within same organisation they do value loyal employees; having said that it will depend on the industry and organisation. Ensure your training and development is ongoing and stay on top of skills within your chosen field.

If you are 40+ years old you should be in demand… aim high and for senior positions, your experience and knowledge speaks volumes, as long as these are up to date, hence training and development.

I am talking through many years of experience -

Accepting that your current model of the world (e.g. The one in which capitalism is compatible with morality) is flawed is not “giving up”, it is often an essential part of the inteligent reasoning process. Without it you can’t progress of applying your intellect to the observed facts, building a new model that better accommodates the observed facts and then renew development based on the revised model. It is the people who – like sheep butting their heads against a fence – have “given up”. It is they who have given up on their own ability to reason and to proceed on the basis of their own reality. They coalesce in the obvious falsehoods because it is “easier”.

@Vasoula Companies screen candidates by the meaning of tests. Being smart or qualified not always scores a positive result in “Companies”.
@Hari young people have 1) yes energy but not experience 2) youngsters are more likely to “follow” which is considered “loyal” 3) say “Yes Boss” and wimp makes you a loyal person but not taking a day off in 20 years and be good at what you do makes you an imbecile.
@Hari and @ Vasoula in your opinion what does “Company Philosophy” mean?

Mario – some companies do screen candidates… the older you are and depending at what level the job is, testing is not that relevant, what really counts is Leadership, Knowledge, experience to make a difference, tests only demonstrate you may or may not have passed the test !

As for Company Philosophy well this is a wide, wide subject and will be viewed differently in each organisation. What I do know the culture behaviour, attitudes, loyalty these play a big part and specifically the culture can influence the attitude of the employee as with formal structures and management policies have a big role to play. When we speak of organisations, we speak of its culture [some org are toxic - bad culture] so that will affect employee commitment and operating performance. It is also about shared values that are related to organisational commitment, personal success, self confidence, ethical behaviour and organisational goals. Personal and organisational goals dont always fit!.

A good example is, getting the job is the first hurdle, the biggest of all is adapting to the culture with its politics and behind the scene agendas – what you see you dont always get, hence people leave jobs because of it.

As Allen put it, building a new model is very valid – this model is a personal model. Here we have an economic downturn, people made redundant, many unemployed, recruiting and finding another job has become a huge callenge for all. Time to rethink, reassess, where you want to be, what you want to do, change direction, start own business [a little risky under current economy] and so on…. Everyone can build a new personall model aiming to mobolise. People are sheep….. hence we would not be working if we had a choice ! sheep follows sheep? I dont think so, it is not about giving up, it is about opportunities and recognising ones position, what is possible and what is not… never give up always try something new even if it means going back to college, to gain new skills…

You definitely are not thinking “outside the box” (as they like to put it), Vasoula. Your new model is utterly constrained within the old dogma. Starting up a business, acquiring new skills… it is all the same tired old strategy within the accepted status quo. The sheep need to recognise that there is a relationship between the fence, the dog, the man and the truck – it is all evidence of a wild conspiracy theory of course, but that doesn’t mean that the man and the dog are not working together using the fence and the truck against the better interests of sheep.

It is the system that is flawed – fatally flawed.
We need to change it. It requires healthy collective thinking and cooperation.
With an honours degree, a masters degree,two graduate diplomas and 25+ years of experience I feel very sure that It will not be achieved by yet another skills upgrade.

I know that the mess has not finished going through the fan. I watch and wait, patiently, confident that soon there will be many more people out there on the scrap-heap of capitalism and it will not be only the people judged to be “past it” or not sufficiently “skilled” it will be the disgruntled brothers of Abel.

Allen – there is no other strategy for some people, it does depend on your age and experience of course and I more or less said this in a previous post, there is so much education a person can undertake but we dont stop learning through out our lives. The system is flawed I do agree. Unfortunately when we are alone and we face a challenge in our life for one is unemployment even with our honours degree, a masters degree etc may not get us a job not because the person is not qualified and competent because it is the organisations that are not thinking outside the box. How much more can one person do! There is much evidence it is who you know and what you know gets some people into new jobs through their contacts cause they know the HR Director, or an IT Director and so on… they are the lucky ones but not necessarily the best suited for the job !!