This is a man’s world

Good title for the blog page, Sarah – from a music perspective, that is!! The next line of the number goes:

“But, it means nothin’ – NOTHIN’ – without a woman by his side”

However the implication of it is that the woman is a by a man’s side – which I believe is irrelevant in a professional context. In an office environment, gender has nothing to do with it at all. It really comes down to the best brain for the job!! The brain is the most malleable and adaptable organ in the body. Indeed, any impact on it can affect a person’s state of being and ability to do the job.

So, assuming that the person has an agile and healthy brain – which simple tests can confirm, especially when working with something so logical like IT – then anyone who has one as well as full set of limbs that makes it easy for them to do the job should be able to do well in the office and corporate environment, irrespective of their gender. It is all a question of having the right skills, experience, training and social skills – but also personal drive and direction that aligns well with what the employing business is seeking to do and achieve.

The thing I feel we are neglecting to ask or check, however, are more what ANYONE’s personal goals are – as much as their technical and professional ones. I actually think that society needs to relax the political correctness a little in being able to ask certain questions. Like, regardless of whether it’s a man or a woman, employers should be able to ask what an employee’s relationship status is (i.e. single, separated, married, divorced, complicated, etc) AS WELL AS what their goals are in any of these cases.

However the nature and context for asking such questions should be that it is a positive thing in offering things that embrace whatever status applies as some form of corporate support for whatever the plans may be. This includes things like being up front on office protocols of whether you are allowed to date someone in the office – or even rules for socialising inside or outside of the office. It should be clear where and when you can take time off to be with your parents, partner or family, etc – and allow for extenuating circumstances like births or deaths in the family as well as accidents.

Having been through a lot of crap since arriving back here in the UK in 2003 with uncertainty over changes in employment and tax laws – and how they were poorly introduced but also poorly communicated and challenged by all and sundry here – I believe the importance of taking these lifestyle values and needs into consideration where such things are concerned has been under-rated.

Instead, it seems to me, too much relies on HR or the line manager simply OBSERVING and making assumptions about what a person’s PERSONAL goals are – as well as the value TO THEM of whether they are aligned with their professional and technical goals and also that of the corporation that they work for. This should include consideration for temporary workers and contractors too – and what their needs and interests in seeking and doing temporary and contract work are over that working permanently for a SME business in starting up and growing or a large multi-national corporation seeking to maintain or advance its competitive edge and market share.

All this needs to be managed, in an equally up front way. There should be no need to rely on observations in either case. Thus, both parties to the employment contract, or contract for services if independently of the corporation, should feel comfortable to ask and be given an honest and straight answer about what each other’s needs, expectations and goals are as well as that of the other.

Unfortunately I have experienced too much of what I call “the James Bond Factor” sneaking into the way that many British people live their lives and how both corporations and individuals operate. It’s almost as if it is a standard M.O. to sneak around and guess or detect things rather than simply being comfortable and open enough to talk direct about things.

I think the issue is that a social stigma, or even culture, has been built up about NOT being able to talk about these things. To the extent that many employers and employees alike are not aware or trained in how to do that. I mean, look how hard it was to get sex education into schools and discussions about the need for contraception by contrast with social and religious mores about that? To me it seemed that there was a lot of pussyfooting around!!

So surely simply stating “I am single and have no plans as yet to get married in the next 3 years – and so can commit, at this stage, to working overseas or wherever you want to send me” is an acceptable line to state – regardless of whether you are a man or a woman and talking to a man or woman about it!!

Equally, the HR or the line manager of the corporation should be able to readily and comfortably say that “this role is going to need after-hours commitment, a lot of travel, etc” – and so how does that fit with where you are at personally? However I often hear scenarios where this is not discussed – and simply speculation in either case.

I am happy to hear from and help anyone who is having challenges with their employer or commitments to their business in such regards – and taking into account such questions or lifestyle considerations. The good thing is that I am independent of whichever side of the hiring spectrum that you are on – including supporting independent professionals too who operate on contract as well as small businesses seeking to get their first employees on board in line with first business won.

Indeed, I aim to provide such people with an independent and objective view as well as a strategy for how to manage your employer or employee(s) in achieving goals that are mutually acceptable and achievable for the good of all!! Just like The Three Musketeers’ principle of “All for One, and One for All!!” – or “Tous pour un, et Un pour Tous” – if you want to be strictly French about it!

So, please feel free to make a time to talk to me by phoning 0844 844 2470 or registering online at http://www.7c-alliance.com – and please note that we also have an Open Practice discussion group on LinkedIn too!!

P.S. I am also here to help anyone where things have got into professional difficulties too – and so, as those Help Line Adverts often say on the TV (and generally late at night for some reason), call me to make an appointment and discuss your employment challenges and see how I can help. The number is 0844 844 2470

So, I hope now that – it is now Man and Woman but Any One – and, most importantly, beyond that:

All The Best – and The Best for All!!!!

Matt Miller
Principal IT and ICT Professional Coach
7C Alliance Limited

Hi Matt,

Thanks for reading the blog.

I’m not really sure why you think it would be a good idea to reveal your marital status in an interview. Firstly it’s none of their business and has nothing to do with whether or not you can do the job, and secondly, as a woman, if you revealed you had just got married for example, people would be reluctant to employ you because they would know that in a year’s time you may need time off to start a family. In that case, they would rather employ someone younger who would have more years to give to a company, or a man.

I do understand what you’re saying about us tiptoeing around issues rather than just talking about them.

Regards,

Sarah

Hi Sarah, why SHOULDN’T you be able to reveal your marital status in an interview?

The fact is, there should be no prejudice at all about your marital status, gender, race, religion or anything at all when it comes to work in an office environment for a knowledge management job.

For some office jobs, of course, it might be different. For instance, I wouldn’t expect to get a job at a Women’s Refuge or a job on a Gay Helpline without fitting the spec of being either a woman or gay AND ALSO talented in helping people with their issues in such regards. Of course I may be able to be objective about such roles – but I would expect empathy to be a high consideration and so being a woman or gay might help. Support roles might be BEST filled by a straight man, however, for helping get over fear and prejudice by the bad straight men that had led the women into refuge or some of the gay guys or girls to seek to call the Help Line. It is an interesting thought to think that I MIGHT still be able to help in either of those scenarios, but still think that initial trauma is something that I am unlikely to understand and be able to help someone cope with.

The same interestingly goes for dealing with high risk roles, such as if I was a soldier with a wife and (say) two kids – there should be able to be some discussion possible for facilitating consideration about choices of whether it is wise to put me in the frontline when it could place my wife at risk of being a war widow (and, of course, the compensation that goes with that which we all have to pay as taxpayers – so let’s be pragmatic about that) as well as the fact that there would need to be time off to see the kids (which I would want if I was in that scenario). Such things need to be able to be discussed openly – and it is becoming a ridiculous if neither side is able, let alone willing, to do it because of laws that tell us it is discriminatory to do so (even though BOTH might like and be willing to discuss such things without fear of prejudice). So just exactly HOW is one side or the other able to raise it without feeling that they ARE likely to have LESS options rather than more by raising it. So perhaps positive discrimination should be allowed in favour of what you need personally – as much as who – but with a good, fair and perhaps even logical reason why such discrimination is needed for dealing with these things. Why should personal needs and considerations – and especially those based around your gender, sexual orientation, marital status, religion, race, etc be left to one side in the hunt for a job that best fits you personally as much as technically and professionally. It is actually illogical, when you come to think of it – as are these laws in going too far by saying that NEITHER SIDE can raise it or discuss it (if that’s what I hear you saying that these laws do). If anything, such laws set employers and fellow employees up to be conned by those whose intentions go against what works best for all – and so, in themselves, are discriminatory!

In IT, however, it is all highly logical but there is nothin’, NOTHIN’ to say that IT IS a Man’s World – unless, perhaps, silly billies like the IT Job Board publish a blog like this to actually make people think IT IS a Man’s World!! Personally, I DON’T like how IT has too many men in it – but it is hard to come up with a rational reason why there should be so few women in it, apart from the fact that blogs like these advertise that and so that perhaps deters women from applying for any such roles for fear of being landed in the middle of a bunch of geeky blokes (and, for that matter, there are not as many geeks as you might think in IT either!).

The fact is, I have exactly a 50/50 split between men and women on a small programme I am managing right now – and things are going just fine, thank you!! If anything, we are going to need a broader cultural perspective of things that shows understanding of how people can or can’t work between here in the UK and different parts of Europe – but, fortunately, English is still the main language of Europe (for now).

Take care – and I look forward to following the rest of this blog with interest.

Matt

Hi Matt,

You have made some very good points indeed. And it is extremely encouraging to hear such positive stories like the 50:50 ratio of your current team.

I suppose the reason laws exist to prevent people from revealing details about themselves such as sexuality or age in most job interviews is so that no one can discriminate if they don’t know.

I’m fairly sure that if a woman wants to get into IT she will not change her mind from reading this blog. But perhaps the real question is, as you say, what deters women from applying for these types of roles in the first place? Could it be that girls are not studying these subjects in school? And if not, why not?

I think you have also touched on another point there as well. The fact that stereotypes exist about anyone and everyone, so although some may think that women are not as ‘geeky’ as men, I think you’re also very right to point out that not all those working in IT are ‘geeks’. So not matter which industry you work in, you’re always going to have to overcome something, so maybe it just comes down to how determined you are.

And just to refer back to an earlier point, perhaps the reason we don’t talk about these issues is for fear of offending others, which would never be my intention

As you said, there shouldn’t be discrimination at all, but unfortunately sometimes there is and that is why laws exist that mean you do not have to reveal personal details about yourself.

Best Regards,

Sarah

Yes, we need to manage perceptions about roles and about discrimination – but the only way I believe to do that is to be more open about things and not afraid to speak up. Thus discussion should be encouraged – and that is why I think the proliferation of online discussion boards are great where you can share your view, pretty much no matter what, and then see how that sits with people. Some advice and support does perhaps need to be provided on how you can ask the questions, talk to people or even advise what you need as far as personal attributes go in both looking for a job as well as employing someone for a job. Otherwise it can just lead to disappointment down the line when one or other’s expectations are not met because, perhaps, they were based on an assumption about a person is.

In any case, it may seem a little field, but I love the Deepak Chopra expression that “I am a human being – not a human thinking, nor a human doing – but a human being!”. So what could be the harm in asking someone about the attributes of them being a human BEING in line with DOING the job?? That is, why not ask what are the guys or girls are like in the workplace you are about to work in – as regards mix of gender, marital status, religion, etc – and have an open question in response, without prejudice, that asks who the prospective employee likes to mix with as well as any special needs, requirements or even interests in such regards. For instance, being able to ask and then know if there if there is any opportunity to socialise outside of work in others or whether there are break-out spaces for prayer if from a particular religions that requires that – or even what the convention rather than the policy is if wanting to make a phone call to wife or family. Of course, may be all these can be asked AFTER passing the main interview where skills are assessed and confirmed as acceptable…

Personally I welcome more women in IT. They are just as capable as us men and in some cases are actually better at dealing with IT Problems (especially with users!). 10 years ago I worked with 2 fantastic women on a helpdesk and ok they weren’t as geeky as me but they knew their stuff and it make for a fantastic working environment.

What place does this kind of inflammatory claptrap have on this board?

“Wake up guys, we are now in the 21st century, and like it or not us women are quite capable of doing anything you men can do.” – hasn’t this been apparent for decades already? Is there some reason feminists feel a need to remind us all of this all the time? They do more damage than good with such emotional knee-jerk truisms.

So my conclusion is this:
Women who are still spouting such massively out-of-date rubbish are too bitter and prejudiced to hold senior positions.

Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks for reading the blog and giving your opinion.

Yes I think you’re right, it has been clear for decades that women are perfectly capable, however I think we need only look at the gender pay gap to see that this is still a very real problem. For that reason alone it is necessary to remind everyone so that this issue does not get ignored.

Regards,

Sarah

I Quit I.T.

I am a woman who worked in the IT industry for about 6 years. My first few jobs were that of a helpdesk In all instances I was always the only female. When I further moved in to other jobs within an IT department again I was always the only female. I found that even though I had ample IT qualifications, knowledge and experience the men seemed to treat me differently, and therfore ragrdless of what my experience qualifications or knowledge were I would find it difficult to progress into more specilaised roles or given responsibility for other more ‘Technical’ duties. This I found extremely frustrating, as I was as good and even better in my skills then my other Male counter part colleagues. I found I was always battling, working harder to prove myself. When I didn’t really need to do this. I felt under pressure to prove that I was good at IT and more then capable then any of my male counterparts. During my appraisals I was told how good I was but I never ever prgressed despite what I was promised.
Unfortutaely for me as a woman I find that as I am excellent at multi tasking I was always thrown in to IT admin job roles within the IT jobs I have been in despite my IT saviness. I felt that I was always being pushed or kept down deliberetly maybe because my male counter parts felt threatend, hence the ’sexism’ in this respect.
As a woman I loved IT was excellent at my chosen career, but once i hit the job market and despite what some IT education institutions claim that both men and women are treated equally within this industry I think they might be a sleep this is not true in my case anyway. My pay was actually equal to my male counter parts or so I was told.
I feel that women always no matter what industry we go in to draw a the short string. I have given up on the IT industry, and am thinking of changing career due to lack of understanding, progression, promotion, sexism and prejudice.
One more thing I would like tyo say is that every IT place I have worked, the men always talk rude regardless of whether a female is present or not. I would like to say I am a woman and not a man. I don’t think men in the IT work place seriously know how to treat women, they should be educated by there HR departments.

We’re sick of this. Children don’t need fathers, families don’t need men, wives don’t need husbands, women are stronger than men etc etc. The same Frankfurt School subversion techniques over and over again. and yes, of course it is easier for women to get through a job interview, because employers always want to close the “gender gap” in IT.

So you keep right on regurgitating the same rubbish and bore us all to death.

If ya got arms and legs.. You’re as good as I am.. No contest we can all do anything anyone else can do if we try hard.. There is no stronger sex as both sexes can do anything thing modern society asks of us (earn money and pay tax ) as for fair pay… In my opinion it’s never going to happen not because of prejudice but because of the way of the corporate system, every employee is paid as little as the company can get away with.. Hence the attitude to never show your payslip to colleagues as people get upset they are not treated fair. Within my gender Men I loos out because I am not as tall as co workers.. I think it was Reed that did the survey stating for every extra inch in height a man will be paid an average of 1,000 pound more a year… the current working system is unjust and could do with a revamp not just fine tuning to help a gender but to help everyone.. But right on its good to have women in IT ideas flow better with multiple viewpoints and ways of thinking…. ..
Each individual has qualities all of their own that no one else possesses that makes everybody the stronger sex.

Let me give an opposite opinion.
I work for a very small organisation which is dominated by the personalities of two women.
I have found these women (a) prefer informal chat and gossip to any structured communication; and (b) are scatter-brained in their attitude to project management and task scheduling (c) are more interested in schmoozing than providing a substantial / analytical basis to any claims.
Generalise? Me? Of course not. There are plenty of scatter brained men unable to think in a logical way. but I do wonder to what extent we are slaves of our biology. Men our team players (hunter gatherers have to be); women are divisive power seekers (stay and home and look after the mud hut, gossip against your friends, and try and look good for the Chief for the chance to pass on your genes to a privileged line). ha ha. (I’ve worked for some rubbish male and good female project managers too… )

“It’s a man’s world” was a great choice of title, and it’s what caught my eye. It was what my Dad said to me when I announced to him I might want to do a degree in Electronics, and it galvanised me to go and do it, when up until then it was just one of a number of ideas.
Having been in engineering and then IT now for the last 26 years, your findings ring true. I find a fair proportion of men treat me just like everyone else and let me get on with my job, and the rest treat me differently. I wouldn’t want to make any rash generalisations about why that was (books have been written, PhD’s have been published…), but if the role of women in your world is to make beautiful babies it’s difficult to imagine how they might also be able to cut beautiful code too.
From my perspective, I always believe that when a woman walks into a meeting for the first time, she is assumed incompetent until she proves herself otherwise. When a man walks into a meeting for the first time, he is assumed competent until he proves himself otherwise.
So I believe with that challenge we’ve bred a generation of manic over-achievers. If something goes wrong you drive yourself harder because you don’t want to resort to beating the feminist drum, and it’s a more effective weapon.
It’s a sad fact we still have a massive salary gap between men and women. I still see (and am still sometimes victim to) bullying and aggressive behaviour which is completely uncalled for.
I also see young men and women coming into IT just taking it for granted that everyone has the right to be treated equally.
I came into this career knowing I was walking into a world of prejudice and I was ready for the fight.
The young already know that women and men are equally capable, so I think the time for making the statement is finished, we’ve got the message across.
But we’ve still got an awful lot more fighting to do…

[...] where IT has all gone to. Certainly it seems like it’s a no man’s land, let alone A Man’s World like some industry blogs are [...]

Yes, prejudice of any kind is bad, and we all have to work against it – but the primary battleground is within ourselves.
Accusing an entire industry of sexism (or anything) is prejudice itself.

So my 2 cents worth is:
Prejudice is like a wall. You don’t get around someone elses’ prejudice by fighting it – you get around it by getting around your own wall – (”X is so .*ist”), and presenting them with a cup of tea & a friendly word; which gives them an opportunity to walk around their OWN wall & see you differently.

Unless of course they are not English or work in IT, in which case it will be coffee…..
probably…. but I wouldn’t want to pre-judge….